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[reporter]
They say she took a pregnant
woman to a wooded area,

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immobilized her
with a stun gun,

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then killed her and cut
her baby out of her abdomen.

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Her wrists were slit.

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She was disemboweled.

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The baby was obviously
cut out of her.

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[theme music playing]

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The thing
inside of me, it's like...

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the appetite,
it's like a wolf that's...

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feeling...
the hunger.

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[Dr. Sahni]
Kathy Coy's criminal history is
well established.

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She's been involved in forgery.
She's been involved in fraud.

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She's been involved in
domestic violence.

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This is a woman who has
a pattern of pretending

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to be pregnant.

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What we're looking at is
somebody who's psychopathic,

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who has a general sense
of callousness,

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who didn't hesitate to do what

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she needed to do
to meet her goals.

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[Dr. Fox]
Kathy was a woman that both
Jeannie and Jamie had trusted

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because they viewed Kathy as
someone who was just being very

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kind and trying to
help their family.

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She had access to free
diapers and supplies.

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And as a 21-year-old mother,
I mean, I can imagine how just

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amazing that would be to have
that kind of opportunity.

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So immediately,
trust is built up.

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Why would you ever think

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another pregnant mother would
ever harm you?

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In just two weeks, how close
and how deep into Jamie's life

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that Kathy was able to get is
just stunning.

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What a very clever psychopath
does is they find what traits

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they already have or what skill
set they have that they can use

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to manipulate other people.

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And in this case, Kathy is this
kind of unassuming person,

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and she finds a way to
essentially convince Jamie that

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she's a non-threat, she's there
to help her, and basically

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make sure there's no red flags
whatsoever on Jamie's part.

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One of the things that I think
we see in this interaction is

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how she kind of views
authority figures.

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Anyone that challenges her will
be met with not so much

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aggression, like
physical aggression,

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but certainly verbal aggression.

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This level of psychopathy
is more about

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avoiding responsibility.

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She wants to try to
save her skin, right?

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She's willing to say or do
whatever she needs to say or do

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to make it so that
she is not responsible.

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One thing psychopaths tend to
be wary of is how

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they're coming off
to other people.

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They, of course, think very
highly of themselves and they

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think that they're doing no
wrong, but they at least are

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trying to always assess
what's going on around them.

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How is this reading to
other people?

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And the fact that Kathy
is literally screaming,

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she is coming off as
very unlikable.

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She's coming off as very
self-centered and narcissistic,

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and frankly, very unempathetic
about where her friend is.

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[Dr. De La Torre]
We're still engaged
in this unique

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negative impression management.

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She wants to maintain the lie.

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I think she wants to see how
long she can get away with it

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and that perhaps maybe she can
find a way out

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of this scenario.

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Kathy is a type of psychopath
that is like water.

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She can easily kind of maneuver
around whatever obstacle is

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around her -- she's not
so rigid.

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"Yes, I did a bad thing,
but it's Ashley's fault.

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"Ashley shouldn't have
sold me that baby.

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"But Jeannie and Jamie,

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"they're the ones
that came to me.

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Anything that happened to them,
that's their problem."

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[Dr. Sahni]
When we look at
psychopathic offenders,

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one of the offender types that
we talk about is the helper,

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the person who makes themselves
the helpful savior.

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But Kathy's not helping.
She's playing games with them.

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She doesn't care
what's happened to Jamie.

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She doesn't care that
Jamie's family is worried sick
about her.

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What we see are some very clear
markers of manipulation,

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pathological lying, a lack of
regret, a lack of remorse,

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a callousness about her actions

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that are also consistent
with psychopathy.

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Here she is basically asking
to take a polygraph test,

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which most people would think,
"Oh, that must be an indicator

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of the validity of her story
and her innocence."

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But the fun fact about
polygraphs is they don't

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measure whether you're telling
a truth or a lie.

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They measure the symptoms
people have when they're lying.

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And if you're a psychopath
who tends to have no remorse,

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no empathy,

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and has that kind of
pathological lying capability,

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passing a polygraph
is cake.

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[Dr. Fox]
I think Kathy is trying to play
on the heartstrings

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of the detective because it
seems like she's coming around

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to the fact that she just
admitted to taking a baby

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that was not hers, but she wants
to make it known that,

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even though she did that,
it's really a sob story

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for her, and she's depressed,
and she's a victim,

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and she doesn't deserve
any punishment.

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But depression is absolutely

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not linked at all to
violent crime.

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She's thinking about how to
evade punishment because

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not taking responsibility
for one's actions is
a hallmark feature

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of psychopaths,
so she's thinking,

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"How can I basically not be held
responsible for this crime?"

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That's the only thing
she's concerned about.

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By the way, Jamie is
still missing.

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She is not worried about that
as much as she's feigning how

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sad she feels.

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She's only thinking
about her punishment

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and how she can avoid it.

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[detective] Right.

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[Dr. Sahni]
While there are aspects of
Kathy Coy's psychopathy,

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the fact that she's now
starting to talk to a photo of

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Jamie, she knows full well
the cameras are on.

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This is performative.

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She's still trying to get
the detectives to let her

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walk out the door, to somehow
acquiesce that this story

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she sold them, that she did buy
this baby, but she left Jamie

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alive and well that morning,
still pregnant.

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They're not buying it, and this
is her last-ditch effort.

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Kathy Coy is very much
in self-preservation mode,

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and the only person Kathy Coy
is concerned about is Kathy Coy.

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[Dr. De La Torre]
Investigators see Kathy
interacting in this way

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and saying these kinds of
things that is

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clearly peculiar.

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And so maybe the best thing to
do is to kind of feed into

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the story that Kathy is saying,
but then again, because Kathy

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is not sophisticated enough,
she then now changes the story

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to say that Jamie was in a car
with Ashley,

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and the investigator's
immediate reaction is like

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everybody's reaction, which is,

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"What?
What -- what are
you talking about now?"

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It's becoming
increasingly preposterous,

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and so you wonder, is Kathy
purposefully being preposterous,

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setting up what
the next act is going to be,

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what the next performance is
going to be, or is she just

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really that impulsive that
she can't think through

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a logical narrative?

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Maybe it's a little bit of both.

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[Dr. De La Torre]
So when we think of
dissociative identity disorder,

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we think the individual has
these multiple personalities

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and other alters that have
been created,

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they're not aware.

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Essentially, the person kind of
blacks out.

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That's Hollywood.

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That's not the real lived
experience of individuals with

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dissociative identity disorder.

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These alters can know of
one another.

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Is it more common than
people think?

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Yes, but here we see
the dramatic elements.

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Here we see the elements that
are clearly far-fetched,

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that are clearly derived
from nonsense and media.

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She doesn't have
dissociative identity disorder.

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But that doesn't mean that

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dissociative identity disorder
doesn't exist.

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[screaming]

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[Dr. De La Torre]
Everything that is happening
here is performative,

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and I think gives us
an insight into how

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her psychopathy manifests.

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They bring up the notion about
telling on Kathy.

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The assumption is that Ashley
is an alter ego and that

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the detectives are interacting
with Ashley,

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with Kathy being sort of
some other alter

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that's no longer in
conscious awareness.

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But the reality is, is that
Kathy just wants the spotlight.

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Everything is just about
the performance art that is

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this alter ego Ashley,
not the reality

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of the situation.

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Kathy is in complete control
of what she is doing.

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She's just unsophisticated in
how she's going about doing it.

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Psychopathic offenders
oftentimes have a very
difficult time

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taking responsibility
for their behavior.

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They find ways to make
themselves the victim despite

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having put themselves in
their own predicament.

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And even after Kathy has now
admitted that she is Ashley,

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her alter ego, she might still
be trying to get a favorable

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position when she does go to
trial, feigning that she's

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incompetent or she's not guilty
by reason of insanity or she

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needs to be in a psychiatric
hospital and not prison.

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I think it's more basic
than that.

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Kathy was just distancing
herself from any culpability.

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Out of literally thin air,
it seems like Ashley, as this

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second personality that Kathy
has, is such a palpable thing

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that she has to deal with all
the time, and of course,

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it happens right now,
so she's really milking it.

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I think the detective
right now is seeing,

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OK, here's her game.

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He's observing it.

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She's going to confess to this
crime, but she's going to try

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to use mental disorder as a way
to get out of it.

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But he really at this moment
just needs to find Jamie,

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and he wants to know
where she's at.

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Hopefully, she's still alive,
and he's thinking,

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"OK, this is terrible acting,
I know she's lying,

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but I'll play along with it
so long as I can get
that information."

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[Dr. De La Torre]
This is heavily antagonistic,
and this is one of the few

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elements of cat and mouse that
we legitimately see

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in a sophisticated manner.

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In some ways, it comes across
as if she enjoys the argument.

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Her history to include fraud
suggests someone who just kind

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of wants to manipulate others,
get some monetary object,

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and then kind of move on.

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But I think she now has
discovered a new arousal,

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a new element to
her psychopathy,

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which is fighting.

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She's enjoying the controlling
elements of purposefully

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starting a fight,
purposefully being antagonistic,

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purposefully being coy,

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and then maybe she'll give
you what she wants.

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We're seeing a side of
Kathy Coy that is the most glib

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that we've seen so far.

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She's messing
with the detective.

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And it's really important to
realize that

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Ashley is Kathy Coy.

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Kathy Coy is Ashley.

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They're one and the same person.

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And the most honest view we may
have of who Kathy Coy really is

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when she's pretending to
be Ashley.

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Time is not of the essence.

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The cat-and-mouse game
has to continue.

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She doesn't care what happens
in this situation.

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She doesn't care whether
the detectives find

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Jamie or not.

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She doesn't really even care
about the outcome at this point

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because she knows the jig is up.

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She knows she's not gonna be
able to get out of this.

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She doesn't have anything to
lose at this point.

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What's happening here?
I think Coy is tired.

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I think she's physically
exhausted and is simply trying

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to get some new attention.

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She wants to be in a hospital,
not in prison.

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She doesn't want to be
behind bars.

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And so this is her opportunity
now to maybe, you know,

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"Let's get out of this room for
a little bit.

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"Let's interact with other
people for a little bit.

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Let's try to find Jamie."

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I think she wants a change of
scenery, and she's using what

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she has in order to control
other people,

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00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:59,793
in order to manipulate them.

240
00:33:59,965 --> 00:34:02,172
But she's not really giving
them the full details.

241
00:34:02,344 --> 00:34:05,689
She's just giving them piece by
piece in order to extend this

242
00:34:05,862 --> 00:34:07,275
situation for as long
as she can.

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[Dr. Fox]
Her story is now
completely unraveling.

244
00:34:55,344 --> 00:34:58,551
She had told detectives that
she has a split personality

245
00:34:58,724 --> 00:35:01,482
and when she's in one,
the other one blacks out.

246
00:35:01,655 --> 00:35:05,172
And yet she's presumably in
Kathy because she's acting all

247
00:35:05,344 --> 00:35:07,068
weepy and meek like
she normally does in

248
00:35:07,241 --> 00:35:08,586
that personality.

249
00:35:08,758 --> 00:35:11,275
But she remembers how
she tased her.

250
00:35:11,448 --> 00:35:13,586
She remembers how she cut Jamie.

251
00:35:13,758 --> 00:35:15,689
She remembers where
she was left.

252
00:35:15,862 --> 00:35:18,689
So just -- it's all
merging together.

253
00:35:18,862 --> 00:35:22,965
It's actually shocking for
somebody with such low empathy

254
00:35:23,103 --> 00:35:25,586
to say she cut her very badly.

255
00:35:25,758 --> 00:35:28,275
But it sounds like she's not
saying that because
she feels remorse.

256
00:35:28,448 --> 00:35:30,137
She's saying it because
she knows the detective is

257
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:33,034
about to arrive on the scene
and is gonna be horrified by

258
00:35:33,206 --> 00:35:34,137
what he sees.

259
00:36:26,482 --> 00:36:29,896
It could absolutely be that
Kathy had a taser to Jamie

260
00:36:30,034 --> 00:36:31,862
and forced Jamie into the woods.

261
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,551
It could also legitimately be
that somehow Kathy was able to

262
00:36:35,724 --> 00:36:37,655
convince Jamie that there was
something in the woods

263
00:36:37,827 --> 00:36:39,000
that they both needed.

264
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,275
But what's more important in
this situation is that

265
00:36:42,448 --> 00:36:46,689
Kathy is getting Ashley's name
back on tape.

266
00:36:46,862 --> 00:36:50,965
She's still trying to plant
that seed even deeper that

267
00:36:51,103 --> 00:36:54,965
she has more multiple
personalities, and that she was

268
00:36:55,103 --> 00:36:58,172
legitimately insane at the time
that she committed this offense,

269
00:36:58,344 --> 00:37:01,172
so she cannot be held
responsible for it.

270
00:37:01,344 --> 00:37:04,896
This was all a setup to take
that baby away from Jamie.

271
00:37:05,034 --> 00:37:09,000
Jamie was never
a 21-year-old future mother.

272
00:37:09,137 --> 00:37:11,689
She was just simply an object
that was standing in the way of

273
00:37:11,862 --> 00:37:14,793
the psychopath getting
the attention that they wanted,

274
00:37:14,965 --> 00:37:17,482
the psychopath getting
the spotlight that they wanted.

275
00:37:17,655 --> 00:37:21,379
And as soon as she was able
to ensure that that baby

276
00:37:21,551 --> 00:37:22,793
could be hers

277
00:37:22,965 --> 00:37:24,793
was the moment that she struck
to take that baby.

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00:39:05,586 --> 00:39:08,965
[Dr. Sahni]
For Coy's husband, Shannon,
to acknowledge that he never

279
00:39:09,103 --> 00:39:11,896
saw her depressed,
she never got help for any

280
00:39:12,034 --> 00:39:15,000
mental illness, and what he was
able to focus on was

281
00:39:15,172 --> 00:39:17,793
her temper, that this is
somebody who goes from

282
00:39:17,965 --> 00:39:22,000
zero to 60 when she doesn't get
her way, and ultimately,

283
00:39:22,137 --> 00:39:25,689
no indications of an alter ego
or another persona,

284
00:39:25,862 --> 00:39:29,275
that tells us everything it
needs to tell us.

285
00:39:29,448 --> 00:39:35,448
Coy's disregard for human life
is something that is stunning

286
00:39:35,620 --> 00:39:39,344
to most of us, but is rooted
in her psychopathy.

287
00:39:39,517 --> 00:39:40,896
It's rooted in her callousness.

288
00:39:41,034 --> 00:39:44,655
It's rooted in the fact that
to her, people are objects.

289
00:39:44,827 --> 00:39:46,000
People are transactions.

290
00:39:46,172 --> 00:39:49,551
People are to be screwed around
with and manipulated.

291
00:39:59,137 --> 00:40:02,655
[reporter]
Kathy Coy, who agreed to plead
guilty but mentally ill to

292
00:40:02,827 --> 00:40:06,034
avoid the death penalty last
month, was sentenced on Friday

293
00:40:06,206 --> 00:40:08,482
for the brutal death of
Jamie Stice,

294
00:40:08,655 --> 00:40:11,793
the 21-year-old expectant
mother, and cutting the baby

295
00:40:11,965 --> 00:40:14,000
from her womb in April of
last year.

296
00:40:14,137 --> 00:40:17,344
She is sentenced to life in
prison without parole.

297
00:40:23,172 --> 00:40:25,965
[Dr. Sahni]
While Coy would have us
believe that she's a profoundly

298
00:40:26,103 --> 00:40:29,034
mentally ill person who needs
to be in a psychiatric ward,

299
00:40:29,206 --> 00:40:31,896
who shouldn't be punished
but needs psychiatric help,

300
00:40:32,034 --> 00:40:36,586
we wouldn't see the kind of
organization to her deception.

301
00:40:36,758 --> 00:40:41,000
And while aspects of
her manipulations

302
00:40:41,137 --> 00:40:42,482
are superficial,

303
00:40:42,655 --> 00:40:45,103
there's an outlandishness
to them,

304
00:40:45,275 --> 00:40:48,103
it's really important to
distinguish that outlandishness

305
00:40:48,275 --> 00:40:50,379
comes from her own narcissism.

306
00:40:50,551 --> 00:40:53,482
It doesn't come from a place of
being psychiatrically so

307
00:40:53,655 --> 00:40:56,655
impaired that she's confused
and she's disorganized

308
00:40:56,827 --> 00:40:58,965
and she doesn't know
what she did.

309
00:40:59,103 --> 00:41:02,965
People who are severely
mentally ill and engage in

310
00:41:03,103 --> 00:41:05,689
crimes that the public looks at
as crazy,

311
00:41:05,862 --> 00:41:08,000
there's a disorganization
to them.

312
00:41:08,172 --> 00:41:10,586
What we see
in Kathy Coy's behavior

313
00:41:10,758 --> 00:41:13,586
every step of the way
is organization.

314
00:41:13,758 --> 00:41:17,275
We see planning, we see motive,
and all of her actions

315
00:41:17,448 --> 00:41:19,379
and behaviors are goal directed.

316
00:41:19,551 --> 00:41:21,482
That's not consistent with
severe mental illness.